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Conservation Crossfire/Fisheries Issues A place for everyone interested in fisheries discussion from a regulatory/political standpoint. The laws surrounding fishing and our fisheries are changing, and this is the place to learn about changes on the horizon. Please keep it civil. We can disagree with one another, without becoming disagreeable.

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  #31  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeWilson View Post
"to the Gulf Council. For multispecies permits in the Gulf of Mexico, only those participants who have substantially fished the species proposed to be included in the individual fishing quota program shall be eligible to vote in such a referendum."

...what a great system...
Mike
I think you're being sarcastic here. I can see that logic for the headboats or the CFH who have logbooks of at least days at sea, but for us private recreational fishermen, no way you can prove anything. I have held a saltwater fishing license since the late 80s and I'm the biggest liar on the block. Tell me this is all a big joke, right?
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  #32  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:41 AM
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Yes - being sarcastic.

Shorter seasons that are apparently being driven by an agenda under the legal cover of the Magnuson act will continue to drive CFH operators out of business and private recreational anglers out of the sport.

In the end game who will be left to vote on the CFH side, not to mention long time private rec fisherman won't even get a say (except through influencing Congressional representatives).

Who truly represents the private boat owning recrational anglers concerns on the gulf council these days? a CFH operator?
Mike
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:26 AM
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The "SoS boys" are just pawns in the game described below. Pardon me while I put back on my 'tin foil" hat and go dream up some more conspiracy theories.
Mike


Fishing catch shares suddenly become hot 'commodities' Investment execs had head start on New England industry future
By Richard Gaines
Staff Writer


Two months before the Environmental Defense Fund achieved a political policy triumph with the vote last week to transform the New England groundfishery from a commonly held resource into negotiable commodities, a bullish EDF executive was urging institutional investors to buy these catch shares.
EDF vice president David Festa's projection was a 400 percent return on the investment, based on what he said was recent experiences with the imposition of catch shares in other fisheries.
A consultant to EDF spoke of returns of 10 or even 20 times investment.
"It's not telecom money, but it's real money," Festa advised a small but influential private audience of mutual and hedge fund managers and ENGO — or environmental non-government organization — officials at an April 28 panel on "Innovative Funding for Sustainable Fisheries and Oceans."
The panel was part of the 2009 Milken Institute Global Conference in Los Angeles, "the largest gathering of capital markets in North America," according to Jennifer Manfrî, communications director for the non-profit, think tank. The institute is a public-private partnership created by Michael Milken, the financial innovator who helped create junk bonds in the 1970s, that directs private capital into investments that serve the advisors' sense of the public interest.
Investor interest in the New England groundfishery was noticeably and recently on the uptick even before the New England Fishery Management Council last week voted nearly unanimously for an industrial re-engineering that would cap total fish catch and divide the total allowable catch into shares to be distributed to permits that are aggregated into business cooperatives known as sectors.
But, unlike the 90-minute analysis of investment opportunities in new catch share fisheries before the influentials in Los Angeles in April, the four-day meeting in Portland that ratified the catch share system produced not a peep about the capital investment implications of what Festa called a "paradigm shift" in the approach to managing the bounty of the sea.
"Why would you tell people the value of the property was higher than they thought?" noted one broker.
Council member Sally McGee, the Environmental Defense Fund's Ocean Program director, limited her comments and motions to the regulatory format changes for the industry, and a desire to end "overfishing." Neither she nor Festa returned phone calls seeking comment for this story.
Under the catch share program approved in Portland, the fishermen who elect to carry on as independents will continue to be governed by increasingly draconian effort controls — fewer days at sea and areas that will be closed to them but not the sectors, as well as a total allowable catch.
And the total allowable catch for next year — the catch share and sector system begins on May 1 — is expected to be conservative because of approaching deadlines to end "overfishing" outlined in the 2006 reauthorization of the Magnuson Act. So the immediate effect will be to make permits less valuable to fishermen across the board.
Permit value is variable based on the catch history attached to it from 1996 to 2006 for most permits.
But a number of permitholders have told the Times they've been solicited by outside capital interests looking to acquire their shares. Council member Rodney Avila, who has interests in two permits and New Bedford draggers, said one would-be buyer was a small fishing cooperative in Maine that has become a partner of and proxy for the Pew Environment Group. Others said they were contacted by intermediaries.
Milken panel moderator Larry Band, who put in many years at Lehman Brothers, the investment bank that went down during the banking catastrophe, and now advises the Environmental Defense Fund, explained to the panel at the Milken conference that the "trick" in executing the correct investment action involved a "little bit of a chicken and egg. The money needs to come in ahead of the catch shares coming in," said Band.
But done right, Band said investors might achieve returns of 1,000 and 2,000 percent — far more than Festa projected.
By converting the wild harvest in the New England groundfishery into negotiable catch shares, the council was opening the floodgate to outside capital, according to broad consensus of regional industry business figures interviewed by the Times.
In effect, the conversion to catch shares controlled by sectors created a fish futures commodity market.
But unlike most commodity future markets where price is subject to guesses, this one will have supply — and thus price — controlled by the federal government, which will decide on the total allowable catch for the year that will be subdivided into catch shares. All indications are that the first total allowable catch will be smaller than the size of the catch from this, the previous year.
Vito Giacalone, the Gloucester-based industry innovator, said the process of inviting capital into the market "always begins with artificially depressing the price."
The allocation of catch share to each aggregated permit will be made next fall, based on data gathered and analyzed the Science and Statistical Center of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
NOAA's national chief, Jane Lubchenco used the bully pulpit in early April to prod the council, an industry related legislative body, to complete the long-planned transition from effort controls to catch shares used by the sectors.
The government's ardor for catch shares was matched by the enthusiasm for the approach of the ENGOs — especially the EDF and the Pew Environment Group, an arm of the Pew Charitable Trusts, a $4 billion philanthropy created and controlled by descendants of the founder of the Sun Oil Co.
One industry financier predicted that fishing catch share format — and commodities market — would succeed in attracting capital into the New England groundfishery.
"People will come in with a lot of money as the new thing" said a financier. "Maybe the fishermen aren't going to stay in, once the ante is raised."
"It's the worst thing that could happen," said Giacalone, a founder and leader of the Northeast Seafood Coalition. He also organized the community permit bank that, over the past two years, bought out fishermen and created a non-profit leasing business for surviving boats with $13 million in mitigation funds from the construction of an off-Cape Ann liquified natural gas platform.
"It's a conversion to share-cropping," Giacalone said. "It sets up a Wall Street approach. Now you handicap the product in the market place because people are skimming and renting a public resource.
"This is being orchestrated by people at the very highest level of government and business," he said, adding that the decision of the coalition to organize 13 sectors was made out of fear that the plan was to isolate only a few permits in the existing two sectors on Cape Cod, which are subsidized by Pew and other ENGOs and create a vulnerable mass of permit-owners struggling against tighter restrictions.
In a presentation to the city last spring, Giacalone noted that the industry was subjected to a vast government authorized overcapitalization in the late '70s and '80s following the exiling of foreign factory boats. He predicted the groundfish landings could double "in the near term" with better management.
David Goethel, a New Hampshire fisherman and council member who has studied and visited world fisheries, predicted the capital market would unfold in brutal Darwinian terms.
"A commodified fishery?", he pondered. "If you could be present at the detonation of an atom bomb at the moment the atoms collide — no country has been able to control the economic forces that are unleashed," Goethel said.
He was the only vote against the conversion of the New England groundfishery to catch shares.
Festa explained to the investors at the Milken conference that the plan to create catch shares and open the door for outside capitalization has been longstanding.
"The Bush administration was good allies of ours," said Festa. "It laid the groundwork for us."
He also cited a "high level task force," with an "all-star" cast that proposed to "redefine fisheries through catch shares. Jane Lubchenco was on the panel."
The panel was sponsored by the EDF, but also included Lubchenco and other scientists who, like her, had been patronized by Pew, which funded a 2003 study by academic scientists R.A. Myers and B. Worm, that the alpha predators could be gone by mid-century.
Festa was referring to the Oceans of Abundance report, described as an "action agenda" for the nation's fisheries triggered by the fear that fishing was "fundamentally altering" the ecosystem which "is increasingly likely to yield massive swarms of jellyfish rather than food fish."
The jellyfish study has been widely disputed and discredited by non-Pew related scientists. And even Lubchenco, before President Obama chose her to head NOAA, was quoted as saying she thought the jellyfish scare was overblown.
Richard Gaines can be reached at rgaines@gloucestertimes.com
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:38 AM
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As to "who will represent the private rec fisherman" I think the NMFS will defer to each state, although I'm not sure how. The orgs like CCA and RFA can lobby it, but I think the Governors and state legislatures will get a crack at it. So far, the NMFS says it isn't going to penalize states for not adopting catch shares, and most such as the 5 Gulf governors, have a strong stance against privatizing and commercializing the private sector. They know that if they limit the recreational catch, they will cause untold economic harm to their tourism and their coastal economies.

The part I don't like is that while catch shares and sector separation might or might not be adopted here in the Gulf, the NMFS will go out of its way to make it more expensive. They'll tax a bunch of us out of the game.

And there will be more regulations, too, no matter what happens. For example, if you have red snapper on board a private vessel, you might need a cut-out stamp or tag on each fish, rubber-banded at the tail in a certain way, or you'll get a ticket of maybe up to $500 per fish.

Sorry to sound like a depressed idiot, and I should probably stop posting in this downer of a forum area. But the government has NEVER made anything cheaper or less complicated.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:12 PM
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PRE MOBILE

in a thread about Catch Shares and sector separation

Quote:
Mike Jennings
tell them the WHOLE truth , you know as well as i do that the GC could require income qualifications with or without sector separation , the truth of the matter is that with separation we could see many of these issues go to referendum , thus making it more difficult for the GC to force such tings on the CFH industry
Quote:
bob zales, II
Can someone please show me where in the council proposed plan for amendment 32 it says anything about a required referendum for the for-hire federally permitted vessel owners regarding sector separation, catch shares, or on anything? Can anyone show me where that language exists in the MSA for for-hire federally permitted vessels? The only ref I see to referendums is for commercial federally permitted vessel owners.

I await a factual copy and paste from any council, nmfs, or msa federal document.

Quote:
bob zales, II
still waiting on the council, nmfs, or msa wording stating that for-hire federal permit owners will be required to have a referendum on the issue of sector separation?????????????????????????????????????

For so many to make the statement that we for-hire federal permit owners will have a referendum, it appears to me there is great difficulty in placing that wording here. For those few who state that I skew data, I never have a problem finding the wording or providing a link to the info. Seems awful strange to me that so many are telling others a fact they cannot support.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob zales, II View Post
. Pay close attention to the issue of sector separation and the required referendum of the "owners" of the federal for-hire reef fish permits.

Shepherd Grimes, NOAA atty, made it clear that if the council and nmfs approves sector separation, it would have to be approved by a majority of the permit owners in a referendum. I have placed the language from the magnuson act below that explains this.
PROGRAM CHANGES FOR FY 2011:
National Catch Share Program (+10 FTE and +$36,600,000): NOAA requests an increase of 10 FTE and $36,600,000 for a total of $54,002,000 and 17 FTE, to accelerate and enhance implementation of a National Catch Share Program. Rebuilding our Nation’s fisheries is essential to preserving the livelihood of fishermen, the vibrancy of our coastal communities, a sustainable supply of healthy seafood, and restoring ocean ecosystems to a healthy state. Catch share programs give fishermen a stake in the benefits of a well-managed fishery, and therefore greater incentive to ensure effective management.
One must ask, if a catch share policy is so good for fisheries and people, why does the government need to spend $54 million dollars to push it and convince us it is so good????
Shepherd Grimes explained to me that the below is clear, that before any sector separation can be approved the plan must be presented to the federal for-hire permit owners in a referendum for approval. As of this past Tues, according to Andy Strelcheck, there were 1217 federal reef fish for-hire permits active. A majority of the permit owners must approve sector separation according to Shepherd.
(D) NEW ENGLAND AND GULF REFERENDUM.—
(i) Except as provided in clause (iii) for the Gulf of Mexico commercial red
snapper fishery, the New England and Gulf Councils may not submit, and the
Secretary may not approve or implement, a fishery management plan or amendment that creates an individual fishing quota program, including a Secretarial plan, unless such a system, as ultimately developed, has been approved by more than 2
3 of those voting in a referendum among eligible permit holders,
Bob Funny how the spin changes after you find out you were MISTAKEN , doesn't it

and i personally see the language speaking toward catch shares , not a separation for an LAPP , they ARE NOT one and the same , but then neither of us are the final word on that interpretation .so i have posed a series of emails to explore your newest twist , im awaiting an answer .

and in all seriousness it was nice to finally get to meet you in person ,Have a great day Mike
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Last edited by Mike Jennings; 02-08-2010 at 02:21 PM.
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Swells View Post
As to "who will represent the private rec fisherman" I think the NMFS will defer to each state, although I'm not sure how.

And there will be more regulations, too, no matter what happens. For example, if you have red snapper on board a private vessel, you might need a cut-out stamp or tag on each fish, rubber-banded at the tail in a certain way, or you'll get a ticket of maybe up to $500 per fish.
Sammie the way Magnuson Stevens set up the council system, I believe that by law the councils must have two voting representatives for each state they represent.

Regarding the over-the-top fines, the recent Commerce Dept. IG report was critical of that, and several other issues in the way NOAAs enforcement arm works. There were found to be a lot problems, one is little to no recognition of the principle of retributive justice, using invasive techniques used in criminal justice investigations when investigating regulatory departures, etc. The administrator has promised some reforms.
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:46 PM
bob zales, II bob zales, II is offline
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I don't think I changed my spin as I asked the question "can anyone show me where it is stated that a referendum is required and as usual I had to go to the source, the NOAA atty. As I am not an atty, he clearly explained the language in the msa. Now this is also the NOAA legal folks opinion and I suspect that another outside atty may have a different opinion. But, since a majority of the fed permit holders will have to vote to separate if or when it may come up, I will step out and predict that there are not 600 fed permit owners who support sector separation, note I said "fed permit owners", not hired caapts, not crew members, not booking agents, the actual owners.

Now to add to that, I suspect that when all the analysis are done of all the ways the rec sector may be split up, pri/rec, headboat, 6 pack charter boats, coi charter boats, moving state lic boats to pri/rec. Who knows how many ways they will split to meet their agenda of reducing capacity. Headboats are the onloy group who have had logbooks, but the nmfs folks still question those. There have been some logbooks for charters in MS, AL paid for by katrina money but they have not been recognized as usable data sources. We have a logbook in FL paid for by katrina money that just started this year. LA started a voluntary charter boat logbook last year and we don't know what is going on with it. SOS supposedly did their own pilot logbook based on 10 vessels at last count using vms, but there has been no report on that.

It's anyones guess at the moment where all this will go, but as I said above, after the 2 to 3 years of future arguments, analysis, and the rest of the BS, I still predict sector separation will not happen in the Gulf, unless the headboat guys try something that takes them out on their own.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:50 PM
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Oh, the council system. There are 1 state resource person and 1 obligatory appointee. That is 10 total. There is crabtree, makes 11 total, then there are 6 at large seats. These seats can be divided amoung the states or 1 state could have all 6. Currently FL has 2, AL 1, MS 1, LA 1, and TX 1. Total = 17.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:27 PM
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junk science, it seems to prevail at nmfs, I guess ill buy a commercial permit and sell them to myself at dinner.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob zales, II View Post
But, since a majority of the fed permit holders will have to vote to separate if or when it may come up,.

Bob

with all due respect , you have missed the point ,, misunderstood what was being discussed , or dare i say your just down right misrepresenting the issue , i don't know which one , and it really doesn't matter.

i agree with you that the wording appears to be very clear when speaking about catch shares having to go to a referendum .

sector separation is an ACL issue for the for-hire sector, not a catch share and therefore requires no referendum.

you among others have done very well in your Internet campaign to confuse the two issues. again i will say that they are not and never have been one in the same.

have a great evening

Mike
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